An interview with Iana Nesterova, a Denmark-based researcher studying degrowth and small businesses.
Iana Nesterova is a social scientist based in Roskilde, Denmark. Her research, which she has been conducting for around ten years, focuses on the post-growth transformations of small businesses in England (where she did her thesis), Denmark, Finland and Sweden. She has published numerous articles on this topic and a book called Degrowth, Depth and Hope in Sustainable Business. Reflections from Denmark, Finland and Sweden. She is also working on the conceptualisation of degrowth and has recently co-published a book entitled Deep Transformations. The Theory of Degrowth (available in open access).
When she introduces herself, Iana doesn't want to be reduced to her academic work, which is just one part of her life. She practices minimalism and zero waste, with the ambition of unifying theory and practice. She documents her way of relating to the world and her daily life on this absolutely fascinating website.
We spoke in May 2024, in a small café in Copenhagen, where she lives. In this interview, she talks about what drives her as a researcher into degrowth, the discoveries she has made about small businesses and degrowth, and her relation with the academic world.
Iana, you are a degrowth researcher. First, how did you become interested in degrowth? What was your motivation to start your research?
It's such a good question. For me, it was a very personal journey, because when I was a child, I lived in nature, in a rural area. And there was so much nature, and I grew up with nature and non-human beings. And I was always fascinated by that and really fell in love with nature from my childhood. But then my family, they chose what I would study at university. It would have never been my choice because I would have wanted to study psychology, or biology, but then, unfortunately, they said to me: you will study economics. And it was mainstream economics and business. And so, at that time, I already practiced this sort of nature connectedness, I went a lot into the forest and I foraged a lot. I practiced voluntary simplicity and a lot of nature-based practices. But that felt like such a huge disconnect between my worldview and what I was studying. Mainstream economics and business is all about encouraging production and consumption. There is nothing that encourages us to think about nature and non-human beings.
So I finished my first degree and my second degree was my master's in the UK. And then, I just felt like I wanted to somehow connect what I was doing with my research, because I knew at that time that I was going into academia. When I decided that I would do a PhD, by then I was already practicing zero waste, extreme minimalism and voluntary simplicity living. For my PhD, I wanted it to be about business, but something far greener than mainstream. During my master's, I was studying behavioral economics, and I realized that there is not just one school of economics, but there are so many! And behavioral economics kind of slowly led me to ecological economics, and through ecological economics, I discovered degrowth. That was such a revelation for me, I felt so happy and I realized that I could do research about something that would be far closer to my worldview, how I wanted to live, how I wanted to relate with the world. And so, yeah, that's how I got into degrowth.
And how would you describe what degrowth is?
I think that there are so many definitions now of degrowth. But with my partner, who is also my co-author, we wanted our own definition of degrowth, because we felt like degrowth focused a bit too much on ‘what needs to be reduced’. It had this message of reduction. And so, we sat down and thought about that. Both of us come from a critical realist perspective on philosophy of science. Critical realism is about seeing reality on the four planes of being: material transactions with nature, social relations, social structures, and inner being, or our psyche. Something that it emphasizes a lot is dialectic. And so we define degrowth as deep transformations that occur on these four planes of being that I named. It is some shift, which needs to happen on these four planes of being. It needs to also happen at once in different dimensions of society. In civil society, including academia, the state, and business, and on the micro level, but also on transnational level. Because it's not so that only one social entity or one country can become “degrowth”, and then everything else stays the same: we believe that’s impossible. Another part of our definition is that these deep transformations need to be driven by gentleness and care, and towards something that is a harmonious coexistence between humanity and nature, within humanity, and between yourself and your soul. So that's our definition of Degrowth.
‘We define degrowth as deep transformations on four plans: material transactions with nature, social relations, social structures, and inner being. These deep transformations need to be driven by gentleness and care, and towards something that is a harmonious coexistence between humanity and nature, within humanity, and between yourself and your soul.’
And do you think that these deep transformations have to start with the individual?
I mentioned that we come from a critical realist perspective. Critical realism is a philosophy of science that acknowledges both agency and structure, so it's almost like a chicken and egg situation! Because as people, we reproduce or transform social structures, and social structures empower and constrain individuals, so it's very hard to tell where it actually starts. My partner and co-author, he would say that it starts probably from social structures, that something needs to happen ; for example, you are exposed to some eco-community, or you meet a person who's inspiring, or you just are given a chance to explore something different. He believes that it first comes from the system, but for me, I really believe that it does, in some ways, start from the individual. I really recognize the structure but in my work and in my teaching, I try to emphasize agency. I do believe in agency quite a lot.
Now, let’s turn to your current research: what are the main things that you are studying in your research?
There are three main strands in my research. One is theorizing transformations, these deep transformations. I just mentioned that's how we define degrowth. And that strand of research I'm doing together with my partner and co-author. He specializes in systems and eco-social policies and political economy. So that basically means that he's looking more into structures, and I look more into businesses and human agency. So when we bring these things together, we feel like we're getting a lot more of a deeper understanding of degrowth. It's much more interesting to theorize and it's very thought-provoking. So that's one strand. My second strand is actually the first one technically. It's my study of degrowth business and I've been doing that since 2016, that's when I started my PhD. At that time I asked myself: what business should be like for a degrowth society to be possible? And that's what I've been doing forever now! And the third strand of my research is my auto-ethnography. When I started my PhD about degrowth and business, I was thinking that business is just one part of transformation that needs to happen. I believe that degrowth business is impossible without a mode of consumption that matches how business should operate. I then thought: I want to understand consumption for degrowth as well. And it took me quite a few years to realize that I should really make my study of my own consumption formal, because as I mentioned in the beginning, I was practicing voluntary simplicity, extreme minimalism and foraging and zero waste and all these kinds of things. And I thought I should just study myself and my practices, because I can get such an extremely deep understanding of practices. It was kind of scary to do this auto-ethnography because you make your life public and open it up for judgment from others, but I don't regret it and I really love it. It's actually my favorite strand of research.
And so, about your research on small businesses, what would be your main findings, the most important things that you discovered over the past ten years?
There were so many things! I think the main ones, is when I just started dwelling in that space, when I just went into that research, I had a very naive view of business. Because degrowth is critical of capitalism, I thought that no business person would know how capitalism works, and that they would be very critical of my critique of it. But I discovered that they very well know how it works, as they experience it every single day. A lot of them are very critical of capitalism, a lot of them are also part of the same social movements that I'm part of. I met a lot of business persons who are climate activists, who are in Extinction Rebellion, and who are practitioners of voluntary simplicity… So that was a huge revelation for me actually. And whichever country it was, because I did my research in England and then in Sweden, Finland and Denmark, and everywhere I discovered the same thing, for small businesses. Also, I realized very deeply on my journey that business persons are human beings, and they are consumers as well, and they play multiple roles in society. They are parents, they are friends, sometimes they are teachers… I think that it's very important to remember that even though someone is a business person or an entrepreneur, owner, manager, whatever we want to label them as in business schools, they are human beings just like me, and just like anybody else.
What would be the characteristics of a degrowth business according to you?
Firstly, it needs to be a business that produces for needs. Because you can have a small business that is doing everything there ecologically, but doesn't actually care about needs. I understand that the question of needs is so messy, because what is the difference between needs and wants? And I do believe that most businesses should be very small in a degrowth society. Generally the way I see it, is that a degrowth business is something that is caring and gentle and mindful of nature, including local nature and place and nature in general, then humans and non-humans. And that it somehow leaves behind this profit maximization striving. But then I discovered in my research that many small business persons are not really trying to maximize profits, and oftentimes don't even know what it means. So, these are simple characteristics. I would also say that people who are looking into degrowth and sufficiency, and all sorts of circular economy things, would agree that these characteristics are important. But the issue now is how to bring them about, how to make these businesses, degrowth businesses, and not just niche within society. So it's this sort of practice.
And so, how do you think it can happen?
There are so many things that need to unfold for businesses to actually step on this path. Some things that randomly come to mind are eco-social policies that can free up time for people to actually exit large companies and set up their small and technological businesses. A Universal Basic Income would also free up time for people to think about what are the solutions they can contribute with. For example, if someone has a hobby or some sort of craft and they can make that into a business. I think also coming from our own field of academia, that academia completely needs to change because the education we offer in terms of business is just unacceptable. It's not contributing to these transformations that we need to see. So I would say that eco-social policies and education are some things that would help businesses step on this path.
What would be your advice for an entrepreneur that wants to have a business that is more degrowth oriented?
First, from what I've seen with other business journeys, I would say that they need to start small. Because the problem is that when they start big or when they have big ambitions they often involve investors. Then the business is not theirs technically, because they have some obligations or they have someone else having a say in what they need to do and how their business journey would unfold. That means that if they start small and work with like-minded persons, with friends or family, or with their partner, then it creates a much better space and environment where they cancome up with ideas and ask themselves how they can be on a genuine sustainability path. Also they should really not produce rubbish but something that answers the needs of people, whatever it is. So at the same time thinking about answering genuine needs, starting small and working together with like-minded and close persons.
‘Key to start a degrowth-oriented business are the following principles: answering genuine needs, starting small and working together with like-minded and close persons.’
Are you optimistic about those deep transformations in the business world?
Yes absolutely! I think that's coming from me working with small and ecological businesses. I feel extremely inspired by them. Again, they are business persons but at the same time they are very often part of movements that I'm part of as well. They are very motivated, they really are doing something and that's what I find very inspiring. I don't know whether I'm optimistic about degrowth… I think that the only thing we can do is to do our best to bring about a degrowth society. But anyway, I feel some optimism and a lot of joy when I work with those businesses and we exchange information, and they are always willing to learn more from me and to come to universities and to think together. They are always asking what other businesses are doing and asking for advice.
In your field, what do you think are the most important things to study?
Quite a lot of people right now are focusing on why degrowth needs to happen. they are focusing on what eco social policies, what sort of systems change needs to happen, why capitalism is bad… I think we have so much critique of capitalism and painting this degrowth futures and talking about eco social policies… What needs to be studied are these individual transformations and self-transformations and what constraints and empowers them. For example, often students ask me : “So what can I do? Is voting for someone, some better party the only thing that I can do?” They feel very disempowered and they are scared when they think about ecological degradation. This sort of is taking power from individuals. But individuals can do so much! They can change their mindsets, they can put pressure on the system, they can put pressure on businesses, they can set up alternative organizations and support each other… I feel that people in degrowth need to pay more attention to individual journeys and individual practices, and what actually people are doing to bring about degrowth. Because, yes, for sure, degrowth is a vision of the future, and it's something that we want. But at the same time, degrowth is happening in very micro ways, for example through friendships and love and alternative organizations. There is so much that exists, and these spaces need to grow. People need to pay more attention to what is good and already exists within society, and think about how to grow these spaces,why they exist,what makes them sustainable and how they interact with each other. So the kind of practice of degrowth right now, at this moment.
What do you enjoy about being a researcher on this topic?
I enjoy working with like-minded people. I'm extremely grateful for this opportunity that I can work with my partner so we can write a lot together. I enjoy working with PhD students, specifically women female PhD students. I enjoy working with businesses as well and it's very humbling. Also I enjoy when I do my autoethnography because a lot of people reach out and say “oh I can relate”, “oh this is so important”, “thank you so much for showing what practices we can do”, and then they share their experiences. I feel this kind of academia and outside of academia worlds, this kind of interaction between these worlds, is something I enjoy a lot.
What do you think is the most difficult for you when you are studying degrowth topics?
The most difficult thing – and I believe that it's no matter if you study degrowth or something else – is academic hierarchies and how academia works. Also, there are a lot of precarious positions and temporary positions. PhDs students are unsure about their future, they often don't know what's going to happen and when they get some sort of position they don't know if they are going to stay. I think that the state of academia is not good and is detrimental to the study of degrowth or whatever topic it is.
Do you have a final message that you would like to convey to our French audience?
If they are in academia, my message to them is work with early career researchers, work with female PhD students as much as possible and stop this worship of professors and this strategic networking, that is so detrimental! People need to unite, they need to support each other, they need to be a lot less utilitarian and exploitative. There needs to be a lot of this bottom up and flat hierarchy-based initiatives in working together. More generally, for every human being I would say that… that people need to find the spaces that are alternative and that are in line and conducive to degrowth and then, they need to grow them, not just individually but collectively: work with local communities, find the spaces. Yes, that's my message! To persons who research businesses specifically, I want to send this message to them that they should do autoethnography. Because quite often, we propose something extremely unrealistic in our research, that we need to become hunter-gatherers, or all businesses need to cease to exist and need to become something different tomorrow. But when you actually watch your own practices and your own journey, then you become a lot more humble and realize how difficult transformations actually are, but also, how possible they are.
Do you have a book or a film that you would like to recommend?
Yes I have two things to recommend! First one is shameless self-promotion, but I think it's very important also to own your work and be proud of it in some way! So my first recommendation is my new book that came out yesterday, it's co-authored with my partner Hubert Buch-Hansen and with our colleague Max Koch. The book is called “Deep Transformations. The Theory of Degrowth”. And it's free, it's open access! Another book that I want to recommend is a book called The Power of Gentleness and it's by French philosopher Anne Dufourmantelle.
A French book!
I was touched by that book. I loved everything about it! Just in the very beginning, when you asked about the definition of degrowth, I said that these transformations on the four planes of being, they need to be driven by something and for me this something is gentleness and care. This gentleness I think is extremely important. It is gentleness towards yourself, towards human and non-human beings. This book is so gently written and it gave me so many ideas and made me realize something about the spaces where gentleness exists and how actually it is a huge strength. So I highly recommend it, because we need to learn more about values that need to grow and be nurtured in a degrowth society. Generally, it's so important that degrowth academics and degrowth activists read far beyond degrowth literature themselves.
The photos are taken from Iana's website.
Interview conducted by Justine Buriller on 15 May 2024 and edited with the help of Maxime Couette.
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